Here We Are: What Makes Us Human

59. Brie Blue [Going Outside]

• Joy Bork • Episode 59

Share episode

One of Brie's first loves has always been going outside. From a young age, she has found belonging in the arms of Mother Nature. This week, Brie dives into her love of going outside, and provides super practical tips for staying prepared, dry, and warm, no matter what the weather.

Check out Here We Are on Instagram, Facebook, or Patreon!

Joy Blue:

Welcome to Here We Are. The podcast where we celebrate the beauty of being a nerd by learning about nerdy things from fellow nerds. I'm your host, Joy Blue. Today's guest is a real treat. If you haven't guessed by reading her name so far, you're about to meet my wife. Brie is a fantastic and smart human who finds so much goodness in nature. And. She has a special nerd interest in the items that we wear to keep us warm and dry while we're outside. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did, especially with winter upon us! Layer up friends. So without further ado here's my wife, Brie Blue to tell us all about her love of going outside.

Brie Blue:

Hi, I'm Brie Blue. I am the wife of our lovely host, Joy Blue. And I guess in the context of this conversation, I am an outdoor enthusiast, someone who finds healing in nature, and someone that loves to help others find that healing by way of the right gear so they can get outside

Joy Blue:

Okay. When you say gear, what are you talking about?

Brie Blue:

All the things, but mainly clothing. Because obviously you want to stay warm in the winter, and you want to stay cool and protected from the sun in the summer, and in a place that has a wide range of temperatures and seasons, that means you end up having quite a lot of gear to go with said seasons. I am a jacket hoarder. I think you know this well.

Joy Blue:

Me too. So when we got married, our jacket collection exponentially expanded. Much to the joy of both of us.

Brie Blue:

Yeah, we're roughly the same size and we wear the same size, and so it's really great. And now we both have double the jackets and double the shoes. We also weirdly wear the same shoe size.

Joy Blue:

Double the jackets. Double the fun.

Brie Blue:

Woo woo

Joy Blue:

Okay. What are we nerding out about today?

Brie Blue:

We are nerding out about outdoor gear.

Joy Blue:

Outdoor gear. Okay. When did you start nerding out about outdoor gear?

Brie Blue:

I think my journey with outdoor gear actually starts just in the journey of going outside and finding healing in going outside and needing to be outside no matter the weather.

Joy Blue:

Mm

Brie Blue:

and there's the saying that there's no bad weather, there's just bad gear. And so trying to find the right gear was a journey that took a long time so that I could find ways to go outside as often as possible.

Joy Blue:

For those of us that might not know what you mean by healing by being outside, could you expound on that just a little?

Brie Blue:

I grew up in an abusive household and it was safer for me as a child to be outside. I found sanctity outside. I remember as a kid, I had this tree that was in my cul-de-sac and when it was unsafe to be inside, when my mom and her boyfriend were arguing, Well, boyfriend singular, but she had many boyfriends.

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Brie Blue:

But when my parent figures were arguing, when my home was unsafe, I would go outside. And I would crawl up into that tree and I would imagine that tree as my home. So one long limb was the kitchen, another long limb was my bedroom. I remember I would curl up in that limb and sleep. Like I actually found comfort in being within nature. And this was when I was a really small human. Of course, when I moved through my teenage years and college, that kind of left me for a little while. But post-college, I was really finding that emptiness again inside. And when I turned to going outside, I found that same healing that I had felt as a child. That same comfort, that same soothingness. And so I began realizing that as I started to unpack and heal from the trauma that I'd experienced as a child, it was integral for me to self soothe by going outside. That was where I was able to find comfort and be met as myself. You know, Nature doesn't require me to be perfect. Nature doesn't require me to be anything but me to just show up. And I felt loved. I still feel very loved and held by Mother Earth. And every Mother's day I celebrate my mother, who is Mother Earth. And in that way, I found just so much comfort in the journey toward being myself.

Joy Blue:

That is beautiful. I have not felt that to the degree that you have. I think part of my escape and healing is to dive into stories or listen to something. So it's been a fun journey that I've been able to witness from the unique position of being your wife, of watching how you might be stressed or you might be tense for some reason, and then you go outside, maybe take our dog to the dog park and you come back and you're so much more centered. It's a beautiful thing. I'm really glad you found that tool.

Brie Blue:

Thank you. I am too. I think in a lot of ways, going outside has saved me. It's been a place where I can hold grief, where I can rage and cry and experience the wide range of human emotions and still be allowed to have those emotions there and be present. You might think of me as like, Oh, going outside means that I'm this adventurous human, that I'm always going to new places and that I'm always discovering new trails or hiking new mountains and there are many people who enjoy that. For me, actually going outside looks like walking the same piece of earth over and over and over again. And you're like, that's probably not very exciting. Why would you do that? But I do that because I find joy in the little changes that happen day to day within nature. And I noticed that when I walk that same loop, so oftentimes, as you mentioned, the dog park, we will go together and we'll walk the same path in the same way. And that's very comforting for me because I know what to expect on that path. But those small things that stand out, maybe the sunflower that has blossomed or the grass that's now greener or now the water is running because rain just came.

Joy Blue:

Yeah.

Brie Blue:

Those small things that I notice, those small changes, I find a lot of joy in that. And I like noticing how even the same patch of Earth can change and evolve and move and grow, and that just brings so much like light and happiness. And so I do find a lot of joy and goodness going outside.

Joy Blue:

And that comes into a lot of our conversations as well. The patterns in nature that you notice then help support you along your journey. Because nature is circular. Everything comes back around and I, I love that, that you bring that awareness into our house. It means a lot to me.

Brie Blue:

Thank you. I think we are nature, Nature is us. We are not separate from nature. We are communing with nature. We talk a lot about Indigenous principles. I align and love learning about Indigenous principles. And one of those principles that Indigenous folks often refer to as opposed to white settlerism, is that we are communing with nature as opposed to taking from nature.

Joy Blue:

right.

Brie Blue:

If we take from nature, we're taking from ourselves. And so this idea that we are on a level playing field with nature, we give to nature, nature gives to us, is something that I really resonate with. And it helps me to see that cyclical nature in myself. The ebb and flow of feelings, the seasons that we might experience in life. I love that summer is the season where you just wanna be outside all day. It's light for 13 hours. You know so much energy. You're all, Your motors are turned up, you're going outside as often as possible. Everything is hot and moving fast. And the winter calls us in to slow down, right? That darkness creeps in. It asks us to turn down the engines, to hibernate, to rest well, so that when summer comes back, we have that energy to go full throttle again. And I love that nature reminds me constantly of the season that I could be. It invites me into that season and asks if I wanna join it there, and I love that.

Joy Blue:

Ugh. I love how much you've taught me about this. So bringing it back to the OG topic.

Brie Blue:

Yes.

Joy Blue:

Tell me how gear enables you to be outside. What's your journey been like with that?

Brie Blue:

My first introduction to gear was just finding like the right hiking boots. Like more solid shoes that allowed me to walk further and didn't give me too many blisters. And frankly, I talk a lot about accessibility, right? I ended up working at Arc'teryx, which is a high end outdoor retailer. They make$700 jackets, and we can talk about why those jackets are$700. But it is important to note that accessibility is important, and so I have no judgment for someone going to Walmart, buying a$30 jacket because that's what suits their need in that moment, and that$30 jacket allows them to get outside in the same way that a$700 jacket allows them to get outside. Obviously, that$700 jacket is going to give them more features that allow you to stay outside longer and do more high energy output activity. But the bottom line is that someone is going outside. There's no judgment from me if you're buying from Walmart or you're buying from Arc'teryx. I want to promote people going outside. And the reality is that not everybody has access to spend$700 on a jacket.

Joy Blue:

Right. So tell me more about accessibility. I know you and I have talked about this a lot. Both of us are larger than, the skinny blonde woman stereotype. Um, Both of us are very well rounded and we like it that way, but folks like us aren't necessarily the stereotype for who goes outside. Can you tell me more about accessibility, about part of your fight for that

Brie Blue:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how long do you have? We could talk for a long time about my thoughts and feelings around being in a larger body and not having proper gear to get outside in my larger body. And I just wanna pause there for a moment and say that my larger body is actually normal.

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Brie Blue:

My size is the average size of a female in the United States, and so the majority of folks, the majority of females are over size 14.

Joy Blue:

Yeah.

Brie Blue:

Most high end, outdoor technical gear is under the size of 14, or 14 might be their largest cap.

Joy Blue:

Yeah.

Brie Blue:

It was that way at Arc'teryx. And what that says when there is no accessible gear for a body like you or me, is that you don't belong in this space.

Joy Blue:

Mm.

Brie Blue:

that is the message that is being sent. One might argue that, oh, there's not enough people in that body size that are going outside, so that's why they're not making the gear. Or, fat people don't go outside and so we don't need to make this gear for fat people. And I use fat in, in the connotation of not a negative, but personally for me, I describe my body type as fat.

Joy Blue:

Yeah, it's a neutral descriptor.

Brie Blue:

Correct, just like skinny would be a neutral descriptor. Fat for me is a neutral descriptor. And so there hasn't historically been clothing for people in fat bodies to get outside,

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Brie Blue:

and part of that is because it feels like there's some gate keeping that's happening in terms of those at the top that are making the decisions for what clothing sizes to make, saying that you don't belong on this mountain with me in my gear.

Joy Blue:

Mm.

Brie Blue:

And so a lot of my fight with Arc'teryx, and I say fight in terms of as a business, I was internally arguing with them to create clothing and gear in sizes that were outside the five sizes that they made. Extra small, small, medium, large, extra large for women, specifically. For men, they made extra small up to three x. So they expanded for men. So they're able to do that for men, but they refuse to do that for women. And that's been the case for really a lot of technical outdoor gear until the last several years. In the last several years, we've seen brands like Outdoor Research and Columbia who've expanded up to three X for women. And we've also seen smaller clothing companies like Girlfriend And Co who are making up to six x. Right. So it's definitely expanding in terms of availability. But I'm talking about technical gear. And this is gear that you need to wear in order to live when you're climbing or hiking or mountaineering or snowboarding or skiing in an environment that if you didn't have that gear, you could die.

Joy Blue:

So you're talking about shoes, pants, jackets, layers, headgear, support stuff like backpacks, hiking poles,

Brie Blue:

Yep.

Joy Blue:

et

Brie Blue:

we're talking about snowboarding, you might talk about boots that fit larger calf sizes.

Joy Blue:

Mm.

Brie Blue:

If we're talking about trekking poles, we might think about trekking poles that support a body up to 300 or 400 or 500 pounds.

Joy Blue:

Yeah.

Brie Blue:

If we're talking about jackets, we might be talking about a four or five x jacket, especially that outer layer that's already going over your base layer, your mid layer, and your insulating layer. So it needs to be maybe a size or two larger than you are.

Joy Blue:

Right.

Brie Blue:

If the match is extra large and I'm already at that extra large, that means I can't wear any additional layers. And when we restrict movement when we're outside, that is very dangerous.

Joy Blue:

So what you're saying is we shouldn't be like Randy from a Christmas story where he can't put his arms down.

Brie Blue:

I mean, you could if you want. I wouldn't recommend climbing a mountain like that, though. That sounds pretty dangerous. But even in terms, you know, you and I climb, right? We do a lot of climbing and access to an extra large harness is hard to find. And if I'm climbing a mountain, if I'm mountaineering, which means I'm wearing thicker pants and need to strap in with my harness, my harness probably needs to be, again, one size larger than maybe I am to accommodate those larger, bulky clothing.

Joy Blue:

Right.

Brie Blue:

What it says is that you don't belong here and you're not made for this sport if you're not making clothing for people like me to be able to get out there and do that. And so I've definitely spent a lot of my time asking and promoting companies to make gear that fits larger body types, and we're slowly starting to see that trend as, outdoor companies are making that technical gear. And the incredible part is when outdoor companies do release that gear, it's actually what sells out first, right? Those extended sizes are usually gone much faster than the average sizes, and that does relate to how many people do want those types of products.

Joy Blue:

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. We've had that conversation before of, is it the chicken or the egg, which comes first

Brie Blue:

right.

Joy Blue:

and. Yeah, I would hope that manufacturers would take the lead on this to not gate keep, and to enable other people to find the healing that you have also found outside.

Brie Blue:

Yeah. Thank you. I think the other part of that is representation and shout out to some of the amazing women, my friends, who are breaking barriers to get outside and do sports that have historically only been within a sphere of a white, thin male.

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Brie Blue:

So to see a woman in a larger body climbing

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Brie Blue:

is representation that allows for someone who might not have tried that before, because they were the only one in the gym that looked like that. And so to see that representation, to see the expanding of what that sport could look like, who's in that sport, is also a part of this, right? So it's not just that clothing isn't available, it's also that historically, our body types, our gender, hasn't been well received in that industry, in that sport. And so both of those things are happening at the same time. More technical gear is being offered so that folks can be able to join those sports or do those sports that they love, and then more of those people who are doing that are posting about it or talking about it, or creating groups specifically for that, that are welcoming more folks in who look like them. So these things were going hand in hand together and really that's just been in the last three to five years.

Joy Blue:

It's a beautiful thing.

Brie Blue:

It is,

Joy Blue:

going to our climbing gym and looking around and seeing more diversity of body type. Of human type, of age. There are people, like it's hashtag couples goals for you and I, there are people that are probably in their sixties that go to the gym together, but there are also tiny kids that come and we get angry at them because they're little, They're little wall squirrels

Brie Blue:

They're so good. They're so good at climbing

Joy Blue:

it's obnoxious. But I'm so proud of you. Keep going.

Brie Blue:

Yeah.

Joy Blue:

Yeah, I've loved learning more about this because of your passion for it, and I'm really grateful for that. And taking a slight turn.

Brie Blue:

Sure.

Joy Blue:

There are so many technical things that I've already learned from you about jackets and layers that I think the general population needs to know. So side note, if you ever come to our house and you look at our coat closet, we have a lot of jackets. And Brie had the joy and pleasure of sorting them by weight. And so then I have had the journey and challenge of trying to figure out what weight is this jacket? Where does it get filed on the spectrum? So anyway, can you tell us more about layers, about breathability, whatever. This is your nerd. Tell me everything

Brie Blue:

Let's talk about it. So a couple of things I want to comment on. First is the layering system. You've mentioned that quite a bit. So we'll talk about the layering system and then we'll also talk about the tow types, the two most common types of insulation and what to look for. So,

Joy Blue:

Here we go.

Brie Blue:

Here we go. Teacher Brie, putting her hat on. First is the layering system. The layering system is having adequate layers that you can put on or remove depending on how hot or cold you are, right? That's the basic. The layer closest to your body is often known as the base layer. For women that excludes bras and undies. I'm talking about shirts and pants that live on your skin. There are typically two types of base layers that you can buy, and honestly, if you're gonna splurge in any of the categories that we're talking about today, if you're like, Oh man, I really do need to go get what Brie's talking about, I would absolutely encourage you to first splurge on base layers. That layer closest to your skin is doing the most work. There are two types of base layers. There's one base layer made of natural fibers. Usually we refer to that as Merino wool and then there's base layers that are made of synthetic or manmade fibers, and those two types apply to almost every single layering system that we'll talk about moving forward. There's usually a natural component, and then there's a manmade component, pros and cons to both. But the general idea is you want something that is going to absorb the moisture from your skin. Don't wear cotton as a base layer. It absorbs a hundred percent of its weight in moisture and does not evaporate. That's why you're really cold after a hike when you wear cotton.

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Brie Blue:

So to prevent that cold, we want that moisture to evaporate. And how that works is merino wool, nature's amazing, or synthetic layers that we've designed with technology that allows that moisture to be absorbed and evaporated.

Joy Blue:

what is that material?

Brie Blue:

It's really just called a synthetic material. There's no really direct name. What you're looking at is what those fibers are made from. If they're a hundred percent natural, like smart wool, right? The whole smart wool brand is obviously a wool brand, and so all of smart wool's products are made from Merino wool. Some people though, think that Merino wool, and I find this to be true for myself, it's a little bit itchy or maybe irritates your skin, and so I tend to lean into the synthetic fiber. The downside of synthetic is it smells more It

Joy Blue:

up your body odor.

Brie Blue:

Correct. It collects and retains your body odor. Whereas Merino wool is, I mean, nature is amazing, right? It gets it right. But if it's itchy or uncomfortable to your skin, and I'm not gonna wear it. I'm not gonna buy that product and I'm not gonna wear. So that's why synthetics are there. They're a little less irritating to the skin. However, you have to wash them a lot. That's why your workout clothes stink. And like even when you wash them a lot, they still stink. Because those body odors and those body oils remain in the fabrics, but usually they're faster drawing. And they tend to work better if you sweat a lot as I do in my larger body. So I tend to stick with synthetic, but obviously both of those will serve the purpose.

Joy Blue:

Yeah. Okay. So mid layers.

Brie Blue:

Yep. So we talked about base layers. It's Merino wool or the synthetic. A mid layer is something that's going over that base layer. Sometimes that looks like a thin jacket. Sometimes that looks like a thick jacket, but the reality is you pick whatever that mid-layer is based on how much you're going to be moving. So stationary versus active warmth. And then how cold it is outside, right? So if I'm gonna be moving a lot and it's not very cold, I'm probably gonna pick a pretty thin jacket to put over this. If I'm not moving a lot, let's say I'm like going to a bonfire and we're just hanging out around the bonfire and I need a lot of warmth, I'm gonna pick something that is heavier. In the same vein as Merino versus synthetic, there's also goose down versus synthetic fibers in a mid layer. Are you still with me here?

Joy Blue:

I'm totally here and I love your nerding. Keep going.

Brie Blue:

So, natural fibers like goose down, I mean, again, nature gets it right. It's the lightest warmth to weight ratio, so it's gonna keep you warmest and it's gonna be the most lightweight. The downside of goose down is that once it gets wet, you are sunk. It takes days to dry. It will not keep you warm. You are

Joy Blue:

It's.

Brie Blue:

a sitting duck, for lack of a better term.

Joy Blue:

Sitting Goose

Brie Blue:

Yeah. If you get that goose down wet, you are not gonna be warm. And so if I'm unsure about the weather that I'm gonna experience or if it's scattered showers, I'm gonna choose an insulated jacket that's made of synthetic, manmade fibers because it's quick dry. Even if it gets wet, it's still gonna keep me warm and it's gonna dry quickly. So even if I get caught in the rain, I'm still gonna stay warm and as soon as I get inside, have a cup of coffee, by the time I'm done, it'll be dry and I can go back outside.

Joy Blue:

That's magical.

Brie Blue:

It is I mean, the technologies that we have around gear right now is insane. Like I can spend so much time talking to you about the technology that's built into a jacket. It's mind blowing. I'm sure you have spent like almost no time thinking about it. And why would you, cuz you're like, it's a jacket. But we've made so much progress in the technology that we've added into our clothing that it's just incredible. And that's part of the reason why those more advanced technologies cost more.

Joy Blue:

Yeah. Okay. Final layer.

Brie Blue:

Final layer, that outer layer, which is sometimes referred to as the shell. If you think of it as like a turtle, it literally is that outer layer that's protecting you. And oftentimes that most outer layer is also going to be the layer that is waterproof.

Joy Blue:

Mm.

Brie Blue:

So you've got your base layer on, your nice comfy base layer shirt, you've put it on an insulating jacket, and now you might wanna put a shell over that to keep all of that nice and dry.

Joy Blue:

Yeah.

Brie Blue:

And that shell, again, can range from a$30 jacket to crazy expensive$700 jackets. The real difference there is breathability, and

Joy Blue:

you encasing yourself in Saran wrap or can you have the waterproof ability while still letting some of that excess out?

Brie Blue:

and this matters a lot when you're moving with high output energy. So when you're climbing up a mountain, for example, or you're doing back country skiing, you've got your skis on your pack and you're climbing up that mountain and you're trying to find a good spot to then ski down. That's a lot of energy to carry your whole body and it's also very cold. So you need all of those layers. And this is why having a base layer that pulls that moisture away from your skin and evaporates it into the next layer, the next layer pulls that moisture out and evaporates it through the next layer, right? So that evaporation of moving that moisture away from your skin, allows you to keep a regulated temperature if you are covered in moisture, you are going to get cold pretty quickly. So we want those, that clothing to move that moisture away from your skin so that your body temperature can remain regular. If they're not evaporating and pulling that moisture away from you, you're in trouble in a situation like back country skiing.

Joy Blue:

I have so enjoyed learning all of this. I mean, granted, I've had several months to dive into this with you and our listeners are just now probably getting their heads blown. What's one thing, if you could summarize one thing you wish people would walk away with?

Brie Blue:

Oh man. My whole goal in trying to outfit somebody with proper gear to keep them safe is so that they can go outside. And I wanna come back to that. Going outside is what I want to leave you with and what I want you to encourage you to do. And whether that, again, is just getting started with simple gear that will allow you to be outside for longer, or if you're more advanced and you want to upgrade that jacket so that you can stay outside nice and dry even when it's pouring rain. It doesn't matter where you are in the journey. My goal and my joy is to try to get what you need so that you can go and enjoy nature in a way that allows you to find goodness and healing.

Joy Blue:

Mm. Thank you for spending time with us today and for letting your nerd shine.

Brie Blue:

Thank you. I love you.

Joy Blue:

Okay. Love you too. Bye.

Brie Blue:

Bye K bye.

Joy Blue:

So here we are! This podcast is so timely, especially since where I'm at in the Chicago land area got our first touches of snow this week. I found so much beauty in listening to and absorbing what Brie talked about. Taking the time to go out into nature and notice. To walk. To breathe. To exist as a small part of something larger. It has been such a gift to lean into this experience with you Brie. Thanks for sharing your nerd with us. If you've got a flavor of nerd that you want me to celebrate, I would love to hear all about it. So go ahead and email me at herewearethepodcast@gmail.com and tell me everything. I love taking time to sit and make space for nerd to be celebrated. If you really like this podcast and want to financially support what I'm doing, head on over to patreon.com. Search for Here We Are The Podcast and sign up for one of the many beautifully written support tiers that I'm very proud of. So until next time. Don't forget that curiosity wins. And the world needs more nerds. Bye