Here We Are: What Makes Us Human

62. Leslie Marshall [Love]

• Joy Bork • Episode 62

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When Leslie told me she wanted to nerd out about love, I was a little skeptical. I greatly underestimated the number of words we could use to talk about this multi-faceted concept. Tune in this week to hear how Leslie Marshall shows love through who she is and how she interacts with the world.

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Joy Blue:

Welcome to Here We Are. The podcast where we celebrate the beauty of being a nerd by learning about nerdy things from fellow nerds. I'm your host, Joy Blue. I met today's guest at one of my dogs and my favorite places to go: Home Depot. I walked to the self-checkout area with our four year old Pyrenes- lab mix Mac, and was met with a genuine smile, real conversation, and the perfect dose of goodness to fuel me for the rest of my day. Selfishly, I asked this human to come join me on Here We Are so we could keep talking. And to my surprise, she accepted. So without further ado, here's my new friend, Leslie to talk with us about love in all its forms.

Leslie Marshall:

I am Leslie. I would describe myself as um, this might sound weird, but like a piece of glitter if you're working on a project or if you've been to a party and you take a shower and that one piece of glitter won't go away. It's always sparkling. That's

Joy Blue:

love. So,

Leslie Marshall:

do you.

Joy Blue:

I love that. I have never heard anyone say that.

Leslie Marshall:

Really

Joy Blue:

That's amazing.

Leslie Marshall:

That's just how I see myself

Joy Blue:

Did someone tell that to you, or did you figure that out along the way?

Leslie Marshall:

No, I figured it out along the way. People are always asking me throughout my journey of life, why are you always so happy? Why are you always smiling? And I'm like, that's just weird to me. But I'm like I, I don't know. I mean, It's just who I am.

Joy Blue:

It's your normal.

Leslie Marshall:

say? Yeah.

Joy Blue:

Yeah. That is a gift for sure. All right. What do you want to nerd out about today?

Leslie Marshall:

Love

Joy Blue:

Oh. Okay.

Leslie Marshall:

love and like just, it comes in all different aspects, but more specifically, like I have always asked people, more so older couples, that have been married 30, 40, 50, 60 years, what's that one thing that kept you guys together during a rough time? That's why you didn't walk away and.

Joy Blue:

mm When did you start doing this?

Leslie Marshall:

Uh, Started asking questions. I would say it's been probably at least 10 plus years ago because I failed at it, and I wanted to know, like from other people what, what made your marriage or your relationship so successful. Not to say success looks like a perfect, because we're all imperfect people,

Joy Blue:

right.

Leslie Marshall:

but.

Joy Blue:

What have you learned along the way? What have been some of your aha moments?

Leslie Marshall:

It's all about like how you respond to the issues in life with your significant other. You know, You can either yell, scream, curse, treat'em like crap, or you can sit down like two adults and talk about it. Doesn't mean you won't raise your voice cause you're upset. You're upset, you're in your feelings. Feel what you feel. don't hit below the belt. You know what I mean? Don't use things that a person have shared with you against them to attack them.

Joy Blue:

yeah. Fight

Leslie Marshall:

You know, They're not your enemy. If your significant other has shared with you in conversation throughout time some of the hurtful things that they may struggle with, but to throw that back in their faces, it's like that can be super painful and some people have a hard time with forgiving after that, you know?

Joy Blue:

Yeah. So what I'm hearing us starting to talk about is the bigger bucket of significant relationships. And inside of that, you've been talking about marital relationships, but I think that applies to like familial relationships as well. So when you enter into, a potentially hard conversation, like I heard one rule is fight fair, don't play dirty. Don't throw people's experience back at them for your own benefit. What are your personal rules for how you engage in a conversation like that? If I were to come to you and say, Leslie, we got a problem, what would you do?

Leslie Marshall:

I would hear you out. I would first brace myself did I do something to offend you? You know what I mean? I'd be like, whoa, wait, what's going on? You know? Um, And then I think too, I listen more like to a person's tone and their body language. I can tell then, okay, this is pretty serious.

Joy Blue:

Yeah.

Leslie Marshall:

And I'm willing to be open. It's just the kind of person that I am, and everybody is different. I'm a very open kind of person. I'm an understanding person. Doesn't mean that it, what the person is conveying to me doesn't hurt, but I am open to see it from their point of view. And I will try my best to make some changes if need be. Sometimes depending on the person, like you said, with this whole thing with love, it's across board, not just in a marriage or relationship. It's a cross board with any relationship, friends, mom and sister, brother, whatever. I try to listen and see what it is I may have said or done to offend them,

Joy Blue:

Yeah. What I'm hearing you say is a principle I've heard of like, just to put a name to it, is like looking for the thing under the thing.

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah.

Joy Blue:

Like you might be saying one thing, but what I'm hearing you say is by studying the body language and by really listening to their tone and trying to get the whole package, you're actually listening for the thing under the thing.

Leslie Marshall:

Yes.

Joy Blue:

That's a skill.

Leslie Marshall:

You know what? And it takes work. Like I said, I've failed. I have failed so many times. That's what made me very interested in asking questions and wanting to learn more because I wanna be the best version of me and I wanna be able to not tear down other people, not hurt other people. I mean, It happens in life. but I don't wanna do things on purpose or it's just I wanna be mindful, but, not walking through life walking on eggshells, but just being considerate of others.

Joy Blue:

Yeah. But what I'm also hearing you say in that is being able to be direct and being able to have mutual trust between you and the individual you're talking to.

Leslie Marshall:

Absolutely. I'm very clear

Joy Blue:

breaking this thing down, there's so much more underneath this. It's not just fighting fair, it's creating an environment where the person you're with knows I will be heard. Also, there will be a time for me to talk and there's already mutual respect there.

Leslie Marshall:

Absolutely. Yes.

Joy Blue:

How do you walk into a hard conversation and not take personal offense to things?

Leslie Marshall:

Ooh, that's a tough one. I'm not sure that I, ooh, that is a tough one there. Not take personal offense, I think sometimes, well, I just gotta be honest. I sometimes I do take personal offense, but I find a way to deal with it. Um, I, I really do try to understand from their point of view, and like I said, I can understand something, but it does not negate the fact that my heart hurts behind it. It's just like, it is what it is. I am a bit offended behind what they said. I try to talk it out. Well, well what was it and why was it? And, but this and that. I try to really break it down and get those little things. So I'm clear on why they got offended in the first place. You know? I try to, like I said, I try to really listen and one thing that I've learned too in life with this is trying to really hear the person while not thinking about what I wanna say next. It's just like, no really, really hear them out. That's a tough one too. But I really try to put it into practice because sometimes people can say things, it's just like, Put it out. Really? Are you kidding me right now? Somebody taught me to say, may I say something?

Joy Blue:

Mm,

Leslie Marshall:

Instead of just Interrupting.

Joy Blue:

Yes.

Leslie Marshall:

Because when you just interrupt, especially when it starts to get a little heated, now they're bringing more offense and it's just oh, are we gonna get anywhere? Trying to be kind, to slide in there because sometimes when people are sharing what hurt them to you, they're touching on multiple different things.

Joy Blue:

Oh, it's so

Leslie Marshall:

be able to comment on some of those things, and they try to wait until they get done. You've forgotten some of the things that they said already. So it's just do you mind, may I share something or may I say something, trying to gently, respectfully Ooh, may I cut in here? To say, to answer that, if they give you the respect to do so be, it has to be respect on both sides to be able to cover these bases, because otherwise one person is just doing all the talking and the other person is sometimes just shut down. Okay, I'm done.

Joy Blue:

Yeah, that's usually me. I have done a lot of learning this year about how to stay present in hard conversations. I haven't had a lot of experience until this year, and. I'm hearing all the things you're saying and my experience matches them perfectly.

Leslie Marshall:

yeah.

Joy Blue:

in my work life, I'm a show caller, so I sit in the back of the room in big corporate meetings and I call all the cues for audio, video, and lighting, and. I'm always on headset. And so one of the things we have is a protocol for how to talk on headset. Usually if I wanna talk to you, I will say Joy for Leslie, and you'll say, go for Leslie. That's how I know that you're ready to hear me out.

Leslie Marshall:

Okay.

Joy Blue:

Or like, when I'm trying to talk to somebody who's in another conversation, I'll say, Hey, Leslie, when you have a minute. And that's my work version of I understand what you're saying. And like giving the other person an opportunity to opt in. That's something my wife and I have talked so much about this year is the principle of consent, especially in these big conversations. Are you overwhelmed? Do I have your consent to keep going on this topic?

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah.

Joy Blue:

But it.

Leslie Marshall:

so good. I like that.

Joy Blue:

It's listening, it's being present. It's also being aware of the other person. It's like all the things you're talking

Leslie Marshall:

Yes,

Joy Blue:

and at the end of the day, like my wife likes to say, a lot of times conflict is love because you're close enough to wrestle with the person

Leslie Marshall:

Yes.

Joy Blue:

to care about, like I truly wanna understand what you're saying. And sometimes that might conflict with who I am and what I understand, but I'm in it here with you. Let's talk.

Leslie Marshall:

Yes. I love what you just said because throughout my journey of life, and I would ask all these older couples about, you know, how long they've been, well, they will share how long they have been together, and I'm just like, oh my God. To me that translates that you are an overcomer. You've overcome so many obstacles throughout your relationship. That to me, I'm like horray! Bravo. Because to me, true love is the tough times. When you can overcome the tough times. When you are willing to stick in the, you know, you, you hang in there, and everything you just described because it's easy to walk.

Joy Blue:

yeah.

Leslie Marshall:

and I'm not gonna lie, I've done that multiple times. I've walked away because it's like, you know what? I can't. But what I think I, I don't know if about your past, but in my past with relationships I have tend to stay there longer than what I should have because I'm trying my best to, hold on. You have to know when the right time to hold on. And you have to know when to walk away.

Joy Blue:

right.

Leslie Marshall:

And unfortunately I've held on way too long for too many times in relationships, not to blame everything on that person, but when it's done, it's done. When it's over, it's over. But I think when you know it's something special, some that's something in you, it's just like, no, we gotta talk about this. We gotta work this out, you know? and it feels healthy.

Joy Blue:

yeah, that also comes back to the principle of consent. Are you both consenting to the rules of engagement for this conversation?

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah.

Joy Blue:

And when one person does not consent to the rules anymore, then it becomes unequal and there's a cost

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah.

Joy Blue:

for every action, there's a cost. And so my new line, pulling from Glennon Doyle is the person I will no longer disappoint is myself.

Leslie Marshall:

I love that.

Joy Blue:

So when the cost becomes me, the cost is too much. Something has to change

Leslie Marshall:

so good. That's so good.

Joy Blue:

and that's a whole new flavor of love.

Leslie Marshall:

Oh, yes. it really is. Self-love is so important. It's so important. A lot of us don't do it, and we're always stretching ourselves thin for everyone else, but not ourselves. You have to have that self-love A friend, well, she really wasn't a friend. I knew of her. She gave me a gift one day just out of nowhere, and I was so shocked. In the gift, there were multiple little things. One was a little plaque that you put on the wall. You know those phrases

Joy Blue:

Yep.

Leslie Marshall:

said something about like, uh, you are smart, you are talented, you are strong. They said, be kind to yourself because you can do amazing things. I had never gotten that. Be kind to yourself. I always wondered, what does that look like for me? And um, I went through some things in life and every day I would look at that plaque and I would read it. And that it always stood out to me. Be kind to yourself. That's that self-love. I had to be able to learn to back up away from certain situations, people, whatever, and work on me.

Joy Blue:

yep.

Leslie Marshall:

make sure I'm putting inside of myself positive things and speaking positive things, and not getting caught up in all the negativity and allowing phone calls or people saying things to me to crush me and bring me down. It's like be kind to yourself. Whether whatever that looks like for each person, if it's going to the gym, changing your diet, your mindset, whatever, that's being kind to yourself. And a lot of us don't do that. We're so busy needing the attention of others,

Joy Blue:

right.

Leslie Marshall:

always on the phone, you know, on social media looking for attention. It's just there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like just having that quiet time with yourself, learning to love you, being okay in your own skin without your phone jumping off the hook every second or texting somebody every second,

Joy Blue:

yeah. That's a whole nother concept of being able to actually be present. Practicing presence is love.

Leslie Marshall:

it is.

Joy Blue:

Something I've learned along the way is being able to ask someone say, Hey, hold on just a second. What I'm hearing is that I think you need something from me. Can I clarify what you need real quick? Are you looking just to be heard? Are you looking for feedback? Are you looking for me to say back to you what I think I heard you say? What kind of space can I hold for you? For me, that helps me get in the right mindset of oh, they actually don't want my opinion. My job is to sit here and to listen. And there's a phrase that says being listened to is so close to being loved that most people don't know the difference.

Leslie Marshall:

Oh my gosh. Wow. Wow.

Joy Blue:

what you're saying is practicing the ministry of presence I am here.

Leslie Marshall:

yeah.

Joy Blue:

It's not my job

Leslie Marshall:

Mm-hmm.

Joy Blue:

to fix You, to advise you or to rescue you, but it's my job to hold space with you.

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah. Yeah.

Joy Blue:

That is love.

Leslie Marshall:

That is so good. Yes, absolutely.

Joy Blue:

Look at us. Touching on so many kinds of love, okay?

Leslie Marshall:

I love it. I love how you put it. It just makes complete sense and I'm a person that's I'm a clear communicator, and this is a part of what you've been saying. I just like to be clear, I want a clear standing, even like at work on my team, I feel like it's very important for everyone to know what's going on when they're a certain, something happens. We need to get the word around. We need to ensure that everybody understands what's happening, because if somebody is off, it messes up the whole thing. We need to be clear. Same thing in relationships. I need to be clear how you feel.

Joy Blue:

Yep.

Leslie Marshall:

you need to be clear about how I feel. You know, If there's certain things I told you in the beginning. You need to know my boundaries. I need to know yours. You vice versa. You know, It, it's important just in life, period, knowing people's boundaries, being clear what's going on, and communication is clear. Like I, I know people who are afraid to really share their feelings, and I'm just like, I try to work with them with that, and I cannot imagine not sharing. It's just about how you share. You don't have to share everything, and your delivery doesn't need to be funky, but at least give a little bit so that people are clear. Cause otherwise people sometimes walk all over you and then you're carrying this anger inside. And that's not fair to you. That's not self self-love. You gotta give yourself the self love,

Joy Blue:

yep. I just heard on a Glennon Doyle podcast that assumptions are budding resentments. But also what I'm hearing you say is when you interact with people that don't feel safe to share, you have the empathy to be able to slow down and say, oh, this might be something that's scary to you. Let me do my best to create space where hopefully you can feel safe enough. You can know I'm gonna hear you and I'm not gonna walk all over you.

Leslie Marshall:

Yes,

Joy Blue:

That's also a gift. Because you're in tune with the other person.

Leslie Marshall:

I try to be, because I don't want anybody to feel like I'm doing that to them,

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Leslie Marshall:

And I feel like sometimes two people hold back because they've been hurt before

Joy Blue:

Right?

Leslie Marshall:

and I know that I can be very private. I share a lot of things. That's a lot of fun stuff. But when it comes to that really deep stuff, sometimes I, I hold back, you know, with my private life, because years ago I shared with some leaders, and before you knew it, like everybody knew and it was just like

Joy Blue:

this is not a safe space.

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah. And that crushed me to where I shut down completely. But through the years I had to learn to trust again. And trusting with it can be a very tough thing. It just can be a very tough thing when you've been hurt over and over again. And then also too, going through a lot of rejection.

Joy Blue:

Yep.

Leslie Marshall:

I, it is just been a lot. And um, I think that's why I've had multiple failed relationships because it just feels like through life, you're, You're growing. You're growing. I wasn't who I was 15 years

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Leslie Marshall:

So I could apologize to whoever I was with 15 years ago. I'm sorry. I was not who I am today. You know what I mean? I have a lot more to offer today because I've matured in more ways than one. You know, We all are in working progress, so

Joy Blue:

But that's also giving yourself permission to evolve. That's part of being in a safe space. Something that my wife and I talked about from the beginning is I'm excited to see all the iterations of you. I like your iteration now, and also, I know you're not gonna stay as who you are now because of what you said. I go through things every day and every time that shifts me a little bit more. Or I learn from experience, oh, that doesn't feel good. I don't wanna do that to someone. So awareness is continually growing. But another part of love is accepting the iterations.

Leslie Marshall:

You know why I think it's great? Because in this world there's so many people that are hurting. There are a lot of hurting people and I feel like in my heart there's just so much love and joy in there and I just want to share it with people because there's so many hurting people in this world that you don't know. Like at my work when I met you and I'm meet people, I don't know if a person just lost a loved one or if they just got divorce or just lost their jobs or just anything that caused them pain when they come in that door, I don't try to do anything. It just happens naturally. I'm like, hi, welcome. And it is just spreading the love through a smile, through a hug, through a uh, encouraging word through whatever it is. People need that. And I don't know why I have it to give, but I just give it, you know what I mean? You just never know how it may alter someone day. So

Joy Blue:

You could be that one bright spot that they needed in order to get through.

Leslie Marshall:

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Joy Blue:

That's amazing awareness too, because we're coming back to all the things we've already talked about. The ability to be present. When I met you, I walked in with my dog and you talked to both of us. When people wanna talk to my dog and they talk to me, not just the dog, that's great. I love that. And then we started talking about dog pajamas and we started, all of these different things and I just wanted to keep talking to you,

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah.

Joy Blue:

which is why I asked you on the podcast so I could selfishly keep talking to you.

Leslie Marshall:

I love it.

Joy Blue:

but I also saw you interact with other people while I was with you, and your demeanor stayed the same. Your demeanor didn't change when you talked to a coworker. Your demeanor didn't change when you talked to another customer. You showed up as you, and by showing up as you, you enabled other people to show up as themselves. It's something the recovery community talks about of leaders go first. So what I saw in that moment was you went first. You said, you know what? I'm gonna show up. I'm gonna see you. I'm gonna say hi. I'm gonna make eye contact with you and smile, which I don't know, somebody might not have had any eye contact that day. Or any friendly faces looking at them. And in that moment you said, I see you, you're important. Thanks for being here. Your presence is noted.

Leslie Marshall:

Yes, it's very important to me to make people feel loved, welcomed. Um, like that new person, like when I, you know, I think we've all experienced it in life. You're the new kid at school. First sit on a job.

Joy Blue:

yep.

Leslie Marshall:

know, You're just, you're always a new person somewhere. You're walking in a new store and you need some assistance. People don't always feel comfortable asking for assistance depending on how they're treated, so, because I've experienced, as I said earlier, rejection and all these kind of things through my life, even as a kid growing up, I hate it with the passion. So I don't want anybody else to go through that. So I'm just like, I wanna be that person and make them feel like family. So I do that. I do it. I just, it's important to me that every person on this earth feels loved in some way because we all need some form of attention. We all need some form of love. And I just, I'm happy to be able to give it

Joy Blue:

That's beautiful. As the the saying goes, usually your biggest wound creates your biggest strength.

Leslie Marshall:

Wow. Oh my gosh. I've never heard that before. And that so fits me. Yeah.

Joy Blue:

I've heard that over and over again in this conversation with you.

Leslie Marshall:

Uhhuh. Uhhuh.

Joy Blue:

That's both resiliency and redemption. That's owning your

Leslie Marshall:

Its, it really is. Never looked at it that way.

Joy Blue:

that's having agency and saying that, yeah, this has happened to me. Like we say in the recovery community, what has happened to me is not my fault, but what I do with it is my responsibility.

Leslie Marshall:

Absolutely. Pass it on to others.

Joy Blue:

you've done that.

Leslie Marshall:

Yeah. Thank you. I do feel like it's important, like what we go through in life is not for us, it's for someone else. Because there will be someone to cross your path.

Joy Blue:

Yep.

Leslie Marshall:

that is going through what you went through that you already healed from, that you overcame, and you can help them through it because they're looking at you like, wow, Joy, you're so successful. You're this, you're that. They have no idea about your history and what you've been through. You know what I mean? They see like the victorious part of you. And they never would think that we've been through that. I've been told that so many times that people hear a little piece of my story and what I've been through. It's like if you only knew

Joy Blue:

Mm-hmm.

Leslie Marshall:

But I'm so grateful for where I'm today. Not that I'm a perfect person, but I know I've come through a lot and I'm very happy in where I am today. I am.

Joy Blue:

It has been such a gift to share time with you.

Leslie Marshall:

Oh, thank you. I appreciate the fact you've been off. Asked me to come on.

Joy Blue:

Thank you for your time. This has been lovely.

Leslie Marshall:

Thank you so much and have a good one.

Joy Blue:

So here we are! My time with Leslie went by so fast. She truly embodies the love that we talked about in this episode. I'm reminded today of the simple power of a warm smile and a genuine hello. We're back to talking about welcoming, about creating spaces for all to be seen and loved. Leslie, I am so grateful for how you showed me love when I met you, during this interview, and I'm so excited to see how life develops for you moving forward. If you've got a flavor of nerd that you want me to celebrate, I would love to hear all about it. So go ahead and email me at herewearethepodcast@gmail.com, and tell me everything. I love taking time to sit and make space for nerd to be celebrated. If you really like this podcast, I wanna financially support what I'm doing, head on over to patreon.com, search for Here We Are, the podcast, and sign up for one of the many beautifully written support tiers that I'm very proud of. So until next time, don't forget that curiosity wins and the world needs more nerds. Bye.